Name and Shame them….

// 4 March 2008

I am continually frustrated by people who can’t get my name right, I mean it’s not difficult, it’s not double barrelled (which leads to with or without hyphen dilemmas), it’s not oddly spelt, it’s not got silent letters none of that. Yet people seem to find it difficult. And I’m not talking about my surname but my title.

The latest in the saga of trying to get people to get my name right is Thomas Cook, the travel company. I booked a holiday for me and my partner, I paid but my partner was to take delivery of tickets as it’s hard to “sign for” when you’re giving a lecture!

So he’d already given his name and address for the tickets. When it came to paying and asking what name to book the tickets I was asked whether it was “Mrs [his name]”. No I said, we’d already had a discussion about why not and I’d already said this was a really big issue for me. So I said it should be booked under “Dr Louise Livesey” (that being my name). Apparently they couldn’t do “Dr” only “Miss, Mrs or Ms”. After much heart-rending conversations they said they’d book it in with one of those titles (Ms to be precise) and then get it changed as soon as possible and ask the company to sort out their booking system. And so in good faith I booked. The invoice arrived with the correct name on it. The flight tickets, however, have arrived in the name of “Miss Louise Livesey”. Yes that’s right apparently not only can I not be a Dr I can’t be defined by anything other than presumed marital status.1.

I am spitting (feminist) feathers spring. I am not a “Miss” and haven’t been since that fateful day I walked up the aisle (wait for it) to receive my PhD certificate. If you insist on using a title, use the right one (Dr), if you can’t have the decency to ring me and tell me. If you can’t be bothered to do that don’t be so damned lazy as to presume I’m a “Miss” particularly when I’ve already said if you have to use a title then use “Ms”. Why is it important? Because men are not immediately categorised by their marital status, women are. And because, to be frank, I’m not Ms or Miss, my bank card says “Dr” the very same bankcard from which I paid you a large amount of money. If my bank (that doyen of conservative institutions) can get it right, surely to heavens you can too.

Thomas Cook – get a grip, get a life and expect my complaint letter in the post. Better still how about a comment or an apology we can publish on the site? (And yes I have sent them the text and the link to the page – lets see if they have the guts to respond shall we!).

To illustrate how much of an issue this will be my partner rung Thomas Cook and said before he has to show the tickets to me could they change the name so it was right. Their answer was “No”. Lets see what they say to me tomorrow when I share with them a piece of my mind.

Anyone with similar stories to tell please do share them here – I may well find myself writing a feature piece on the importance of this and would love to include other stories….

Comments From You

Becky // Posted 4 March 2008 at 7:35 pm

That reminds me a little of something that happened to a friend a while back, the phone rang early in the morning when her partner had just left and she was trying to get the kids ready for the school bus:

Woman on the phone: “Oh, hello love, is your husband in?”

Sam: “No, he’s gone, who is it?”

Woman: “Oh bother, it’s work, we need him to come in straight away.”

Sam: “Well, he’s on his way…who is it in the office who wants him?”

Woman: “Oh, no, not the office love, I’m calling from the the GP out of hours service, he’s down as on call today.”

Sam: “Ahhh, you’re looking for Dr Coney?”

Woman: “Yes, that’s right, do I have the right number?”

Sam: “Yep, that would be me…”

Danielle // Posted 4 March 2008 at 7:52 pm

I also hate it when people ask “But is it really that important?” Yes it bloody well is! This would be even worse for Louise, who I’m sure has worked long and hard to earn the title Dr.

What are the odds that men wouldn’t have so much trouble getting it recognized? Or is that a stupid question?

Charlotte // Posted 4 March 2008 at 8:18 pm

This situation is completely ridiculous, but god, tell me about it!

Being a lowly student, I do not (yet) have a PhD and so I identify as ‘Ms’. Letters from universities are almost always ‘Miss’ even though I quite clearly marked myself as ‘Ms’. My boyfriend’s Mum constantly uses ‘Miss’ when referring to me, despite numerous subtle reminders that I don’t actually want her to. What I particularly hate is the way that people always say ‘What’s all the fuss about- it’s just a name?’

ARGH. Because I don’t want to be automatically defined by my relations to a man!!!!!

Kit // Posted 4 March 2008 at 8:48 pm

I’ve run up against a similar thing with banks. My situation is complicated by the fact that my birth-sex is female, but I identify more strongly as genderqueer.

I have asked one bank (HSBC) to change my title from the outdated ‘Miss’ to no title, just my initials, which they did. My other one, Co-Op Bank, insisted when I opened my new account that there had to be a title on the computer system. I asked directly to be known just by my initials, and explained that I was uncomfortable with a gendered title, but they insisted.

Forced to chose, I went for ‘Ms’, and made some feeble joke about how I’d have to become a Dr soon. In retrospect, I should have told them to forget it and taken my account elsewhere.

Glenda May Richards // Posted 4 March 2008 at 8:57 pm

I kept my surname when I got married, Richards, and just asked people to refer to me as Mrs. Richards. Well, even my sister said I couldn’t do that because Mrs Richards was ‘mum’s name’ (my mother took my father’s name Richards and did not keep her maiden name). When my mother-in-law bought tickets to the Canary Islands for my husband and me, she just assumed I had taken her son’s name, Hancock, and so that was the name on my ticket. Cue huge big first fight of our marriage as my passport still said Richards, unlike the ticket, and the airline very nearly didn’t let me board the plane! Even now, I get mail for Mrs Hancock and I it just bloody annoys me! Thanks Louise for pointing out this small, but still pertinent, problem.

Alex T // Posted 4 March 2008 at 9:08 pm

I’d used Ms for a long time before I got married, but wasn’t too fussed about Miss still being on a few things. When I got married (keeping my own surname, obviously) I thought it was time to get everything in line and make sure everything said Ms. The bank changed it to Mrs, and the credit card said they couldn’t change my title without a wedding certificate. A wedding certificate!

Oh well, I’m a primary school teacher and you get used to being called all manner of things. My (one) male colleague gets called Miss almost as much as I do…

Jess McCabe // Posted 4 March 2008 at 9:20 pm

That’s particularly bad considering the Co-op is the one that’s meant to be a strictly ethical bank :/ Although I just checked their site, and their ethical policy is strangely devoid of anything to do with gender. I am also a customer (OK, of its internet bank smile), and I plan to email them post haste.

Helen G // Posted 4 March 2008 at 9:22 pm

One of the early milestones in my transition was legally changing my name. It marked the formal start of my RLE and was also the start of the two year period before I can apply for a new birth certificate in my ‘acquired gender’. So it was important to me to notify all those powers-that-be: bank, tax, National Insurance, passport, driving licence – you name it, I changed it. 15 different organisations and nobody batted an eyelid, they all took it in their stride.

Over the next couple of weeks, one by one, the new documents came back to me in the post – and then I got an email from the mobile phone company. “We’re sorry you’re leaving us”, they said, “but will close your account on the 17th as requested”. Except I hadn’t even thought about leaving them – I’d had a contract with them for 10 years and was in no hurry to change. I rang their Customer Services, explained the situation and was told it was an error and not to worry, they’d make sure everything was okay. But the emails kept coming, I kept replying, I rang, I wrote letters, I even wrote to Ofcom – and everyone reassured me and said they’d put it right. It was nearly a month before I finally gave up and moved to a different mobile phone company. I can snort derisively – I mean laugh – about it now, but at the time I was really upset. The whole point of transitioning is to address gender identity issues and these idiots just couldn’t cope with that. Not that they had to. I was the one who was having to cope, I was the one who was transitioning. All they had to do was change my form of address to Ms and my first name to Helen. Everything else on the bill, all my account details remained unchanged. Or would have, if they’d actually bothered to listen to me.

Which is why I, geek of the week and Apple fan girl extraordinaire, will never ever have the object of my desire – an iPhone – because I will never do business again with that phone company, not even if they were the only phone company on the planet.

Not even if the alternative was two yogurt pots and a piece of string.

Chameleon // Posted 5 March 2008 at 6:17 am

This struck a chord with me too. British Airways has no problem with letting you use Dr. as your title Like Louise I have a doctorate (in my case in social science from UCL).

When I signed an e-mail to my new boss at work as Dr. he sent a snotty one back saying “We don’t use titles round here, it is highly undemocratic”. I was putting down a marker at a time when I was going through the procedure to contest his appointment (I had applied for the post and am vastly more qualified academically than he is). The rejection letter confirming that my appeal against him had been unsuccessful was addressed to Mr (Chameleon). Particularly galling.

One of the reasons we should insist on using the title on all occasions is not alluded to in the Google post: women’s competence is routinely ignored and hence undervalued. We should not allow lazy companies to perpetuate the Bridget Jones image of ditzy but well-meaning women dritfing haphazardly through life and finding happiness through their association with men as opposed to serious efforts on their part. It isn’t to do with snobbery, but with breaking down gender-based stereotypes.

Susannaaaa // Posted 5 March 2008 at 8:53 am

Royal Bank of Scotland. Glasgow University. Neither of these seem to want to send me anything marked “Ms”. *sigh*

Also I ordered some printer ink from Dell on behalf of my mum, putting in Ms as her title, and it came addressed to “Mr Cath K*******”. Good grief. In fact, my mum paid the gas bill for the family prior to splitting with my dad, and she paid the final bill on the house the other day. Despite her having been the one who paid it over the whole of our lives in that house (ten years), they sent the confirmation of cancellation letter to my dad’s name. To my mum’s flat, where my dad does not live, but in his name. FFS.

Eleanor // Posted 5 March 2008 at 10:42 am

At work I do a lot of asking and recording people’s names, and our database requires a title – I’ve stopped asking every woman who calls whether she’s a Ms, Miss or Mrs, both because it’s none of my or my workplace’s business and because it’s a boring thing to have to say dozens of times a day. I now record everyone as Ms unless I’m told otherwise. I wonder whether it’s okay for me to do this – I’m sure there are women who are very proud of their relationship-status-revealing title, but the outdated system’s making my life harder.

I recently got around to going around banks changing my Misses to Mses, and got quite bored of being asked whether I’d got married. One person changed it to Mrs anyway and I had to stand in line twice to correct it. It seemed as though it was a rather unusual thing for me to be requesting, and the staff weren’t quite sure what to do. What a waste of half an hour of my life. I could’ve spent that time saving the world!

Laura // Posted 5 March 2008 at 10:53 am

I was actually gearing up to do a post on this, Louise!

My landlords send every single letter addressed to Mr (boyfriend’s name) and Miss Laura Woodhouse, despite the fact that I wrote, and continue to write, Ms on every single document we have to fill in related to our flat. It drives me mad! The title makes me look like a kid compared to my boyfriend’s adult title.

I just applied for a Tesco clubcard, again using Ms, and all the communication I get from them (the card never turned up – they’re useless in more ways than one, but I’m forced to shop there due to where we live) arrives addressed to Miss.

When I changed my address on my Doctor’s record at uni this year, I also changed my title to Ms. It was ignored, and Miss Laura Woodhouse still flashes up on the screen when I go for an appointment.

The list goes on…

Hannah // Posted 5 March 2008 at 11:03 am

Does anyone else think there should be some sort of legal change that means only the Ms title is valid (obviously people could say what they like informally, I just mean on formal documents)? Because I hate being faced with a choice of Miss (unmarried, possibly young and silly and easily ignored, or ‘available’), Mrs (married-talk to her husband instead) or Ms (a bloody feminist no doubt – it’s only a title love, get over yourself).

Lily // Posted 5 March 2008 at 11:06 am

I think part of the problem is that a lot of (hate-mongering, add other adjectives here as you feel is necessary) anti-feminists take one look at Ms and think “oooh… she’s a man-hating feminazi!!” Which probably puts off a lot of young women off and thus results in confusion and downright bewilderment at banks etc. And this of course leads into that big question of whether feminism needs to be re-branded. A BIG question, and probably beyond the scope of this post. Weird how this tiny action can cause so many to take such offense (consciously or not). I wonder if there is any research into the effect of putting Ms versus Mrs/Miss on CVs (vs no title at all).

And just an anecdote: in my confused childhood incipient feminism, I didn’t know about the Ms option – I used to go the other way and address letters to all my male acquaintances as “Master so-and-so”

well-meaning, but… yeah, pretty dumb.

Ms Sam // Posted 5 March 2008 at 11:48 am

I have to take customer orders at my work and never ask women for their title and like Eleanor just put down ‘ms’ unless they say otherwise. I also put ‘ms’ down on everything and all these things come back with ‘miss’. I find it so great tht so many women care about the unfairness of ‘miss’ and ‘mrs’ if the comments on this blog are anything to go by then I think companies and the public in general need to listen. (Also as regards to ‘Dr’ – if you work hard for your doctorate then you deserve to use the title, I imagine men don’t get snotty remarks when they use the title ‘Dr’ )

Helen G // Posted 5 March 2008 at 12:18 pm

…And being called “Mr” automatically when I’m on the phone.

No-one ever asks how you’d like to be addressed.

*stares pointedly at call centres*

So now I just keep interrupting them: “Please don’t call me Mr” until the penny drops and they actually bother to ask.


Rose H // Posted 5 March 2008 at 1:45 pm

It reminds me of the time when a charity worker stopped me in the street to ask me to sign up for something and on hearing that my title was ‘Ms’ looked at me slightly oddly and asked, “Aren’t you a bit young to be divorced?”

Genevieve // Posted 5 March 2008 at 3:08 pm

I use Ms. on everything too–whenever I’m in a situation where I’m presenting someone with my title it feels like I need to be very stony and impersonal to avoid potential questions about my title. I wish it were more normalized–men are ‘Mr.’ whether they’re married or not, whether they’re five years old or eighty-five years old, they’re never expected to change titles (unless of course they acquire the title of Dr. or perhaps a high military ranking, but these are titles that most people look at and say: “Wow, you’re a DOCTOR! That’s AMAZING!”–and rightly so–instead of: “Oh, she’s married, okay, she needs to be Mrs. now”)…but women are constantly defined by age and marital status and if you opt out then you’re not normal.

I agree with whoever said that ‘Ms.’ should be the new title to refer to all women as. Young, old, married, not…if they choose to take their husband’s name, they’re still Ms. [Husband’s Name] just as the few men who take their wives’ names are Mr. [Wife’s Name]. If I get married I plan on hyphenating (my current boyfriend’s last name starts with the same letter as mine does and the alliteration would be too much to refuse if I were to marry him)–but I’ll still be Ms. [My name-his name].

Belinda // Posted 6 March 2008 at 11:23 am

I was fortunate to have a wonderful teacher at school who was Ms and explained why she used it – I was just at the age when you start to get official post and have used it ever since.

Since getting married I’ve chosen to use my husband’s surname as well as my own professionally, but not hyphenated it – that’s caused some real problems, especially with people asking if they can just use my husband’s surname, instead of the two of them. Presumably the hypen would make it legit?

However, I have had an issue the other way with titles. Once when running an event, I had my admin send out confirmation letters to attendees. Where people had specified a title, we used it, but otherwise Mr and Ms as per our usual protocols – I got a snotty email back, telling me that this particular participant was Mrs (but hadn’t specified it on the form) and demanded to be addressed as such – fine, no problem with that (though the tone was objectionable :) ). Apparently it was made all the worse by the fact that the participant was apparently a distant relation and I should have *known* that they were married, even though I wouldn’t know them from Adam… The hazards of working near to where you were born when you have a large family… Still just goes to show you that titles are important to people, whatever they choose to use.

Cara // Posted 6 March 2008 at 12:43 pm

Jeez, reading these stories you’d think it was 1908..not 2008…what is wrong with those people?!

I don’t see why it’s anyone’s business whether or not I’m married, thanks.

My bank also insist on using Miss – even though I write Ms on everything – grrrr. Trouble is if I request a new card I’d be without a card for weeks, doubtless something would go wrong…sigh.

Why DO people get so snotty about it? I once took my laptop in to be repaired and said Ms when asked for my title, the guy very pointedly said Thanks, bye MISS *xxxx* when I left. Idiot.

Am considering a PhD at some point, thought it might get over that problem…obviously not :-(

chem_fem // Posted 6 March 2008 at 12:49 pm

I’ve just downloaded the student membership form for the American Chemical Society, and the only choice of titles is Mr and Ms.

I was so impressed!

Sian // Posted 7 March 2008 at 4:07 pm

When I worked in call centres I did the same as Eleanor and Ms Sam, assuming Ms status-the doctors/military etc tend to tell you straight off I found. That divorce myth is so prevalent too!

My parents gave me my mum’s surname when I was born, they then got married (20 years ago) and my dad changed his surname to my mums-and they STILL get mail from family/friends addressed to Mr & Mrs. Dad’s name, even I have had mail addressed to me with his surname. It’s really irritating.

john b // Posted 11 March 2008 at 11:27 am

I hope I’m not missing anything here, but the original post seems to conflate two totally different points.

1) obviously, the use of “Miss” and “Mrs” as titles for women are archaic and absurd, and the sooner everyone uses “Ms” the better.

2) but the use of title to indicate one’s professional status, whether male or female, is absurdly pretentious (particularly when, say, architects or lawyers, with equivalent levels of education and training to an MD or PhD, do not indicate their status. And no, I’m none of the above) and the sooner everyone just uses “Mr” and “Ms” the better…

Louise Livesey // Posted 12 March 2008 at 4:10 pm

Sorry John but it’s not “absurdly pretentious” at all and they aren’t two separate issues. I am neither a Mrs, Miss or Ms now, I was a Ms, then I was conferred a doctorate and now (as the name implies) am a Dr. A doctorate is about a specific set of skills and the title is recognition of that (usually a sole authored, substantial piece of original research). It’s not about “time served” but about work done. I routinely get letters address to “Dr and Mrs Mysurname”, presuming the doctorate must be held by a man. When I am giving my details on the telephone I usually get “And is that Mrs or Miss”, I say “Dr” and usually get an “Oh” and occassionally “Really?” (as if women tended to lie about their professional status). (One lovely exception was a call centre person who was a student of the same subject and we ended up talking for a fair while about his study).

For me it ties into all sorts of issues including this gem. A male medical student walks into a cubicle and the patient addresses him as doctor, a female medical student walks into a cubicle and is addressed as nurse. That anecdote came from several female medical students talking about the way in which they are treated. But worse was to come – several of them said because they are asian they tend to have to explain several times that they are not there to take the bedpan/get water etc but are, in fact, the doctors.

The same old line (“pretentious”) was trotted out in response to Dr Condoleeza Rice, by the way, and I covered it here. The thing is that women have been excluded from the professions, and from equal footing with men in those professions, for a long time. So much so that it is rarely acknowledged that women can, and do, achieve the same “heady” heights as men (it doesn’t feel that heady when you’ve spent all week writing documentation but it’s a living). It’s not pretentious to be proud of one’s achievements – especially against adversity and that includes being a woman from a working class background who happens to have a disability. If I can achieve a PhD against that backdrop why is it pretentious to use my legally conferred title on my documents? Why must I be hemmed in to Mrs/Miss/Ms (Married/Unmarried/Divorced or Bolshy)? Why is it pretentious to say my professional status is more important than my marital status? Why must a woman who demands her professional status be visible be classed as pretentious?

john b // Posted 13 March 2008 at 12:51 pm

Re the Rice piece, I’m quite happy to also note that men who choose – outside of their professional lives – to be referred to as “Dr” are also silly, and anyone who’d criticise Ms Rice but not Mr Reid for making that decision is an idiot and quite possibily a mysogynist.

But I still don’t quite see where you’re coming from. Your marital status is absolutely none of Thomas Cook’s business – agreed. Why on earth should the fact that you spent several years doing sole-authored original research be any more relevant than that to the act of booking a holiday?

In short, isn’t making them refer to you as “Dr” more or less the same as phoning them up and saying “I’d like to book a holiday; by the way, I overcame adversity in order to accomplish great academic works”?

EBaezaChavez // Posted 13 March 2008 at 4:41 pm

I don’t think its at all pretentious to use “Dr”– you put in the hard work- why not use the title? I had it pointed out to me by a man I was talking to, that he was a “QC”. He obviously deemed it of vital import that I address him correctly. But women as ever are supposed to be modest about our achievements?

The above reminds me of a story:

A car crash takes place- the father of a little boy is killed, the child is rushed to the ER, but the surgeon says “I cannot operate on this child -he is my son”. How is this possible?

Answer: Who said all surgeons were male?

But truly: ask people this and they are baffled for an answer, the best I got was the parents of the boy are a same sex couple, rather than the obvious— his mother is a surgeon. Sadly a sign of the times.

I think I will start using “Reverend” or “Mother” on my bank statements.

chem_fem // Posted 13 March 2008 at 9:57 pm

The only time when it is inappropriate for people to use their professional title is if they are in a professional context where their title could be misleading.

For example if when I graduate from my PhD in chemistry, I decide to retrain as a nurse, then using the title doctor in a hospital could mislead people.

There are many reasons to use it outside of work: banks become suddenly nice to you, you can get better offers for mortgages, or some people generally taking you more seriously. It might not be right, but it is fact.

Lara // Posted 13 March 2008 at 10:55 pm

What’s pretentious about using a title you are legally entitled to use? If you were calling yourself Dr. without having the necessary qualifications, that would be pretentious.

I think it’s overly modest to reject a title you worked for.

Louise Livesey // Posted 15 March 2008 at 1:01 pm

John, I think you misunderstand my point. I truly believe the best option is to use no titles at all. I have a perfectly good name, I am happy for people to use it. I’d advocate against using the Mr/Ms model too – why is gender relevant here? How do transgendered or cisgender people fit into these categories?

However if societies or companies deem it necessary to use titles surely they should be able to identify women by something other than their marital status?

As for your personal feelings on whether people should refer to their professional status that’s not really the point I was making. Except that I don’t see men making that argument to other men, I only ever see it used in discussion about a woman demanding visibility of her achievements and argument she is somehow doing something wrong by arguing for this.

Atalanta // Posted 7 May 2008 at 9:53 am

If we must use a title at all, ( and I’d much rather not) let’s all be like the Israelis and use Geveret, which is their title for a woman whether married or unmarried. When an organisation insists they must fill in the box for me marked “title”, I equally insist they use “Geveret.” Which shows up their bureaucracy for the nonsense it is.

Ms/Miss/Whatever // Posted 7 May 2008 at 12:40 pm

Hannah, what you said is spot on.

I’m so glad other peole feel the same way as I do. This issue makes my blood boil! I am unmarried and probably always will be but I cannot cope with the thought of being referred to as Miss when I’m an old lady. I think this is a very important issue as it is something we encounter on a daily basis since most of us probably receive mail every day. This DOES matter. Let’s do something about it! Surely people are already on the case?

steffi walsh // Posted 9 January 2009 at 11:30 am

a few years ago i decided to do up MY home and i went to a large diy centre to buy a sander,(taking my 2 kids with me)i knew exactly what size/type/brand i needed so after collecting “ticket”gave it to assistant to get it from stock.he looked at ticket and asked if i was sure that i knew what i was getting,i said yes and he duly got it,after passing it to me he slightly stooped down to me and said wouldn,t i be better off bringing my husband down to the store to make sure i had got the “errand” right!okay i am only 5ft 3 but i am not helpless/married or sent on an errand by anyone…

Lisa // Posted 30 March 2009 at 10:45 pm

I am quite new to the Miss/Ms debate (where have i been you may ask!) and am interested in how i go about changing from Miss to Ms? The information i can find on the deed poll UK site aligns title change with change in marital status/name change. This is not the case for me – if i solely want to change my title to Ms how do i go about it? Is there a cost (apart from to my sanity when businesses get it wrong as contributors here evidence?!)

Jan // Posted 20 January 2010 at 1:39 pm

Lisa, you shouldn’t have to change your title by deed poll, just put Ms on all your forms and it *should* soon catch on.

Gemalou // Posted 23 February 2010 at 11:12 pm

I had a similar problem with First Choice. I booked mine and my boyfriends holiday tickets – myself as Dr and my boyfriend as Mr – but the ticket arrived as Mr and Mr – when I phoned them I found out that their plane tickets only come as Mr, Miss, Mrs or Ms – and Dr on the booking form defaults to Mr on the plane tickets. Luckily the lady at the check-in desk noticed that this would be a problem and changed mine to Ms – apparently I might not have been let on the plane if my ticket said Mr…

gemalou // Posted 23 February 2010 at 11:25 pm

…also one of the things my friends and I (male and female) were most excited about during our PhDs was changing our titles upon completion – I don’t think it is egotistical to click the Dr box on a form if there is one… because I am one- But I now often find myself wondering if it is going to cause misunderstandings later on.

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