“So, fuck that or what?”

// 20 July 2008

Last week I was walking home, across the railway bridge and down the little one-way street that leads me back to chez Abby. It’s a very quiet street, but during the daytime it is safe. On this day three men were walking towards me. One short, stocky with what looked like a skin complaint, swigging from a can of larger, the other two were tall, slender, dark-haired and pretty non-descript, and were likewise gulping from cans. The reason I refer to their appearance will become apparent later. They were walking in the middle of the road and I was on the pavement, but for some reason I felt uneasy. I put my head down and hoped that by some act of God they wouldn’t notice me, or that I would slip comfortably between the cracks in the pavement, as I walked past. Unfortunately, they did. “Alright, love,” shouted the short one over his shoulder. He could see I was looking at the ground, and something indignant in his tone of voice told me he had sensed my intention of nervously ignoring them. I raised my head slightly, half-smiled and kept walking. I was anxious, blushed red and willed myself to be teleported home as soon as possible. He then turned to his friend and said in a loud, brass and self-assured manner, “so, fuck that or what?” Not her. That. Not a person with independent thoughts and feelings, but a product, a hole in the wall, that could be filled and refilled at will by whoever would condescend to “fuck that.” And that I was privy to this meeting of great minds as the question of my desirability was bandied around the streets so loudly that a young mother, walking towards me with a pram, bowed her head as she glided swiftly past for fear of having any association with me and thus becoming the target of these crude comments, did not seem to matter.

I hurried home chased by muffled laughs and not-so-witty retorts that I struggled to decipher owing to the fact that I wanted to get away from them as quick as possible. It was embarrassing. I was embarrassed, even though I had done nothing to warrant this negative attention nor directed crass and inappropriate language at a complete stranger for just walking down the street. And while it would not have mattered if these had been three of the most aesthetically pleasing, generically attractive men ever to stalk the earth, what bothered me was the fact they felt they could slight my appearance in such a coarse, base manner, as if should they have all decided they were “desperate” enough to “fuck that,” that I would have stripped off there and then, lay back and spread my legs as if grateful for the favour. But later that evening, and in the days proceeding, I didn’t think about this once. It’s not that I thought it was acceptable, nor because it didn’t bother me (I felt extremely uncomfortable, intimidated and vulnerable), but because I have subconsciously come to accept this as part of the normal daily routine. I no longer see this as behaviour directed at me personally, but rather a part of a much greater malign directed at women in general, and something that we have no choice but to suffer. But I don’t want to feel like this, and having considered all the instances I have been subject to this treatment, am I angry.

I’ve been the recipient of more offensive comments, worsened by the fact those men felt they had a right to be tactile with me and touch parts of my body I’d rather leave untouched, thanks. I’m not the only one to be the subject of this sort of behaviour, with the response to my blog post last year and more recently the phenomenal reaction to the lovely Laura’s piece, showing that street harassment is still a part of most women’s reality. On more than one occasion I’ve been walking home, with cars filled with what I assume to be teenage boys speeding past as they shout “slag” at me. This happens. Yet, when anything is written on the subject it’s not unusual for men to wade in wearing prickly shoes and claiming that this does not happen, just because they are not guilty of the behaviour themselves. It is this attitude and the failure of society as a whole to recognise that this is a problem that prevents anything being done about it, and I set up a specific blog to discuss this last year. I can only put up posts when people e-mail me their experiences, and if this is something you would like to contribute to, please do not hesitate to let me know as I think talking about it is a way to help breakdown the belief that the person subject to taunts is in any way responsible for their treatment.

But all in all, I think the sheer denial by many of the difficulties faced by a lot of women everyday when doing nothing more than walking to work, is what precipitated my ambivalent feelings towards this story. Female students at a college in Kent were sent an email from the higher echelons threatening disciplinary action should they continue to indulge in “totally unacceptable” behaviour by wolf-whistling at builders who had started work on the campus. The students were informed that this behaviour “constitutes harassment,” with a spokesperson for the contractors claiming “we do not condone inappropriate behaviour from any parties on our sites.” While I accept that this could distract the men from their work, I am almost 100 per cent sure that getting wolf-whistled at by a girl in school uniform, thought uncomfortable, would not have physically threatened or intimidated them in any way. They would not have felt their physical safety compromised, unlike a young girl walking past a group of rowdy workmen who feel it’s necessary to comment on the size of her chest. No-one, man or woman, should be made to feel awkward or embarrassed because of their sex, but considering most women are frequently subject to considerably lewder comments it’s farcical that this story should make it into a national newspaper. A man being wolf-whistled at by a woman is in no way comparable to a woman being asked for a blowjob by a random man, primarily because biologically men are stronger, and men can always violate a woman’s body. The only reason I can fathom to justify the existence of this report is because it is such a rarity for men to complain in this way that it was considered newsworthy. That women, getting touched up and confronted with a barrage of filth on the tube, in a club or even when walking home on the street, is not featured is probably testament to the fact that it happens so often that people have a complete disinterest in reading about it – it’s just part of being a woman.

The most interesting aspect of this article are the end statements claiming that a new Sexual Offences Bill in Scotland could see individuals punished for up to ten years for “communicating indecently,” with the new law intended to punish sexual harassment via text, e-mail and letters, and also “sexually explicit comments to strangers.” While the law would only punish persistent offenders, is it not absolutely ridiculous that in order to encourage individuals to treat people they don’t know with a modicum of decency and respect that a law has to be implemented threatening a custodial sentence? But is this the answer? Should similar laws be introduced in England and Wales to “punish” men who lack the social etiquette to realise that asking a woman to sit on their face as she walks home is not the correct way to behave? Or would such a law be subject to abuse? While street harassment is getting completely and utterly out of control, how would such a system be regulated? And in all honesty, considering how difficult it is for a woman who has been raped to get any sort of justice in a court of law, how likely is it that we would get the desired result since we have not, in fact, been severely physically violated? Plus, as is always the case, it’s likely the minutest detail of our sexual lives and dress sense would be dissected beforehand to find the reasons why we had been spoken to in such a manner – because, of course, it is always the fault of the victim. So what’s the answer?

Comments From You

Laurel Dearing // Posted 20 July 2008 at 5:00 pm

you know if we instated all the education that is needed for polite co-existence i doubt we would have room for any other subjects. when did we actually get to this stage? its hard to think as you only see it from puberty. has it always been around for women without a male chaperon?

it is a shame they feel the need to give these hard sentences to induce a civil moral decency that is easier to abide by than not. we have over crowded prisons that most people aren’t scared of, and people don’t walk around with license plates and as you said, what proof would you have?

it feels ridiculous at the moment. if it wasn’t prison sentences it would be another silly ad campaign that wastes a lot of money and people ignore. I don’t think the demographic that listens to the govts posters are who they aim them at, otherwise binge-drinking would be over. is there anything that we seem to have the power to actually DO about these things?

Renee // Posted 20 July 2008 at 5:03 pm

I don’t know that there are any answers other than encouraging parents to raise their children to respect women. It is so ingrained in our social system to be abusive towards women I cannot readily envision a day of change. I recently had a similar experience wherein a man stared at my breasts for over five minutes in the presence of my family. I felt humiliated and powerless to make him stop. To be objectified in this manner is something that women deal with on a daily basis and it seems that no matter how many times we say that it is not appreciated men continue on in this behavior.

Liz Ely // Posted 20 July 2008 at 5:06 pm

That’s horrible, and it seems like it’s published in order to further restrict women’s sexual choices. I got into a big row recently with some racist meatheads in a pub, who kept on talking about women pissing in public. I pointed out that they were only mentioning it because they were women and men do that all the time. The debate went on to them saying that black people were less evolved. Much shouting later, I walked out.

Also walking home last night alone, every bloke I passed was like, ‘you wanna dance luv.’ One guy stopped me by standing in front of me and forced me to give him a high 5. I looked pissy, and he got annoyed. I high5ed him because it seemed easiest, and he grabbed my arm. He didn’t do anything else, but I felt like shouting – do you know how intimidating that is when a man grabs you, obviously I didn’t and just went on home. The frequency of this shit is appalling.

Anne Onne // Posted 20 July 2008 at 6:42 pm

That’s awful. I’m glad you’re OK, but the fact that nothing happened doesn’t negate the fear you feel until you make it away to somewhere you can feel safe.

I have very little sympathy with the people who make women’s lives a misery every day, and if I thought that there was any chance of catching them, educating them to act like decent human beings, or keeping them away from people, I’d jump at the chance. Nobody is owed social interaction with the other gender. However, I doubt that anybody will actually be taken to task for such behaviour, and see no way to actually implement such laws. It’s nearly impossible, and a lot of the harassment would be difficult to prove, expecially given most men consider it acceptable, and think that they should define harassment themselves.

I find the idea that women are out to get men locked up for being a bit flirty laughable. It says a lot about the people who worry that men are likely to be disadvantaged unfairly in a system. They clearly think that either women are idiots who will accuse any random bloke who looked at them for a second, or that they will deliberately abuse this as some sort of revenge ploy. They never consider how intimidated women must be, although they’re probably the first person to cross the road if they don’t like the look of who’s coming up from the other end.

Renee // Posted 20 July 2008 at 6:59 pm

find the idea that women are out to get men locked up for being a bit flirty laughable.

I could not agree more. It is not flirting when someone feels threatened. We are entitled to safe spaces and honestly there are so few of them. It seems like men are always looking for an opportunity to exploit.

On that post I linked to I pointed out a story of a man who climbed down an out house hole to peek at women while they used the facilities. I would never think that such a place would be used to violate privacy that way. I mean he was was just covered in the most disgusting sh*t yet that was not to far to go to violate women. If we cannot even go to the damn toilet in peace where can we find a safe space?

Michelle // Posted 20 July 2008 at 7:05 pm

I worry, though, that this sort of thing is getting worse and not better in the UK due to the seemingly rapid increase in extremely scantily clad drunken girls floating around (especially, but not limited to, hen night parties). I feel as though they are making it harder for those of us who are not drunken and scantily clad, and I wish for the sake of female solidarity that people would change to stop encouraging their objectification.

ConservaTorygirl // Posted 20 July 2008 at 8:14 pm

Side comment, but I once saw a cartoon of some builders ogling a women in perfectly modest clothes, and they were saying to each other:

“Cor, just look at the brain on that!”

and another one was calling out

“I’ll give you a game of scrabble any day!”…

It was quite a nice take on a really unpleasant subject.

Qubit // Posted 20 July 2008 at 8:25 pm

I think it is right that harassment is investigated and dealt with whoever it is occurring against. Men and women are similar so both parties are allowed to feel uncomfortable at such attentions.

While female harassment of men is still far less common I know numerous men have commented to me they feel uncomfortable with the treatment they can get from some hen nights. In this way equality is going in the wrong direction with men becoming increasingly badly treated by women and forced into certain looks be the media. I don’t want to achieve equality by making men suffer more. Although some guys, like some women love it a large proportion don’t and we have to protect these people and make them feel safe.

I think given how often female harassment is ignored and women are told to stop moaning it is easy to take a sarcastic ‘oh poor men’ approach. However we have to acknowledge that if similar behaviour makes men uncomfortable it is a problem just a less common one. In the case mentioned above of the college students making inappropriate comments to the builders it is one that can be dealt with easier as they can be educated at a young age.

While nowhere near as bad as your experience Abby, I have also been rated as unattractive in the street. This wasn’t intimidating as it was the day time in a reasonably public place (and the less intimidating system of a numerical rating system was used). It didn’t leave me feeling all that good about myself but I figured that these things happen. What I find odd about things like this, is that if you mention them to a decent guy they are surprised things like this happen regularly. It might explain why a large majority of men feel street harassment isn’t a problem.

Cara // Posted 20 July 2008 at 9:24 pm

Michelle, I take issue with that. Women should be able to dress however we damn well please.

Society encourages us to dress to look “sexy” and “hot” etc., who can blame women for doing so?

Equally, we should be able to drink as much as we like.

Do men get crap for being drunk and “scantily clad”?

I actually agree with Qubit that women wolf-whistling men and so on is equally unacceptable. (While taking Abby’s point that women feel physically threatened by men and not vice versa). It’s not that I put women on a pedestal, expecting them to behave like perfect ladies – but aping the worst behaviour of men in the name of equality is NOT feminism. It’s valuing stereotypically male behaviour over feminine, and detracts from actually questioning the patriarchal shit that drives men to harrass and perv in the first place.

ConservaTorygirl // Posted 20 July 2008 at 9:59 pm

Having given this some more thought, it strikes me that this is a direct result of the pernicious idea that women are either up-for-it or up-tight. Everything in terms of a narrow and unrealistic definition of sexuality.

I feel that there are far, far too many young women who given the choice between the two, present themselves as up-for-it, which serves to renew the idea that some men have that women are a sub species which can be discussed in this manner.

Thinking about the article on women and vulnerability in relation to this, I would have found it hard to understand how any woman or girl would not have felt vulnerable in such a situation.

Cara // Posted 20 July 2008 at 10:28 pm

Also, what’s with the slating of hen nights?

I am going on one soon and do not intend to harrass, leer at, or perv on any men, or drink excessively.

Interesting how bad the image of hen nights is, given the article on marriage…for one night, women are allowed to behave badly, as long as they’re planning to be all “respectably married”!

Rachel // Posted 20 July 2008 at 10:39 pm

The only time i DON’T get sexually inappropriate comments made when I am wearing something terribly provacative like i don’t know…a pair of two inch heels and jeans is when I’m with my boyfriend. And even then men will Gawp as if an alien had began to spawn new life in my hair and cleavage. Personally, I blame the media aimed at both men and women which normalise the objectification of women from both sides, so that both men and women will accept it as normal. Disgraceful. And it doesn’t stop as you get older, so many of us don’t even have that to look forward to. And, if I were to chat back and raise my issues with these derogatory comments I will no doubt be intimidated by these gremlins. oh! makes me angry…any ideas how I may channel my anger for a good cause?

Renee // Posted 21 July 2008 at 1:30 am

@ Michelle “I worry, though, that this sort of thing is getting worse and not better in the UK due to the seemingly rapid increase in extremely scantily clad drunken girls floating around (especially, but not limited to, hen night parties). I feel as though they are making it harder for those of us who are not drunken and scantily clad, and I wish for the sake of female solidarity that people would change to stop encouraging their objectification.”

I also take issue with this commentary. It is victim blaming. It does not matter what a woman wears a man has no right to assume that he can physically intimidate her or make sexually suggestive commentary. It is like saying a woman deserves to raped because of what she is wearing. A woman should be able to stand buck naked in the center of the street and not be harassed period. This is about male ownership of female bodies.

ConservaTorygirl // Posted 21 July 2008 at 6:04 am

Hen nights are awful! Even the ones that have *no strippers* rules!

And I think there is a point of comparison with men getting drunk half naked, because they’ll be turned away from many places but what it never is is sexual and not usually unreasonable. They usually bring it on themselves.

Squaddies are especially fond of getting completely plastered and then running around, dancing etc naked.

Qubit // Posted 21 July 2008 at 8:35 am

Most hen nights are fine, however some can be intimidating in the same way some stag nights are intimidating to women. I don’t doubt many women on these nights behave respectably, but so do most guys when they are out. I think we will see an increase in women, yelling at and intimidating guys when they are out as this ‘normal’ behaviour is copied from groups of guys.

Jennifer-Ruth // Posted 21 July 2008 at 9:43 am

Michelle – sorry, but a woman should be able to walk down the street naked without fear of assault. It would be a little weird, but no matter what anyone does, they have a right to feel safe.

The blame should stay firmly on the harrassers.

Frankly, if men want to be able to approach and chat up women without the risk of coming across as threatening, then men have the fight the harrassers too. They are the only ones who can create a safe atmosphere for women in public. Mainly though, they look the other way when they see it, and then get all pissy when the woman they “politely” tried to chat up in a queue at the bank didn’t respond. Somehow, she is psychically meant to know that *he* is different from that man who followed her for 15 mintues threatening to rape her after she turned down his advances (happened to me…).

Just sayin’

kate // Posted 21 July 2008 at 9:55 am

My most common experience is when walking home alone at night, a group of drunken men will shout something vaguely sexual, just like in your story. Sometimes they’ll decide I meet up to their physical requirements, sometimes not, but I’ve realised it’s not really about that. It, as so often, is about power. They love the feeling they have in that situation, tongue loosened by a few beers, in a group of their mates, with a woman who they know won’t pick a fight with them. I always think they’re the same men who, in normal social situations, never dare to approach women they find attractive for fear of rejection. It’s pathetic really. That’s my theory.

Danielle // Posted 21 July 2008 at 11:58 am

I personally find the best way to deal with men like that is to act confidently and look them in the eye, it unnerves them somewhat. Of course, I’ve been lucky enough so far not to be “punished” for such unnacceptable assertiveness, I remember that horrific post a while back about the woman who beat off one attacker only to be harrassed further by another group of men.

I would say that the best way to deal with it is to learn how to read individual situations and decide how to deal with it, but that would be putting to onus on the victims, as everyone says.

Still, between now and the great feminist revolution (which is bound to happen at any time, surely?) confidence is a good deterrant, most of the time.

Like everyone else, I also hate the sense of entitlement such men seem to have, as if for some reason “alright love” (or worse) should be received with gratitute, if not open legs. Because we’re all so desperate for approval that we’ll shag the first drunken, non-descript wanker that crosses our path…

Alicia // Posted 21 July 2008 at 3:06 pm

ConservaTorygirl said:

Having given this some more thought, it strikes me that this is a direct result of the pernicious idea that women are either up-for-it or up-tight. Everything in terms of a narrow and unrealistic definition of sexuality.

I agree with this completely. It is not the intent that changes, it is just the vocabulary – whether you are getting called a stupid slut, a frigid bitch, a fat cunt or a skinny mole (sorry – Australianism, not sure what the British equivalent of mole is!) it is all coming from the same place of denigrating women and polarising them in the simplest possible terms.

Aimee // Posted 21 July 2008 at 4:54 pm

That’s disgusting. It’s happened to me on a few occassions (lewd, inappropriate, offensive comments) and I’m afraid i’ve never been able to show your restraint. Whilst I understand that you must have felt intimidated and incomfortable, I don’t think we should bow our heads and scurry off… this kind of behaviour towards women is NOT acceptable and we should let these men know that it’s not acceptable. Why should we be frightened and meek? So I reccommend that next time some wanker and or wankers (I think the collective noun is a ‘grip’ of wankers) decide that they can verbally abuse us because we are women, maybe we should say something, or do something? ‘Cos this kind of crap cannot continue.

George // Posted 21 July 2008 at 9:43 pm

Ha! This is far too familiar – a few weeks ago, I was walking to work when one idiot chose to remark to his friend (as loudly as possible), “Look at the arse on THAT!”.

‘That’?!!! Excuse me?

As for the suggestion that we should turn around and tell them that they are being unacceptable, there are two main problems. Firstly, if they are the sort of knuckle-draggers who think that these sort of comments are acceptable, they aren’t likely to also understand our point (especially when you’re trying to explain it to them in the street outside Weatherspoons). Secondly, there is the real risk that they might get thoroughly pissed off and thus you’d be in danger. Although they should be told, it should never be at the expense of your personal safety…

Jennifer-Ruth // Posted 22 July 2008 at 9:24 am

George –

I would never expect you to tell off rowdy (or drunken) men on the street about their sexist behaviour. You are right to say that that could be dangerous – and these men are threatening to men as well as women.

However, I do expect you to call out your friends and your work colleagues. I don’t believe for a moment that none of them has ever said anything sexist in front of you before!

George // Posted 22 July 2008 at 5:17 pm

Jennifer-Ruth – indeed :)

Jo // Posted 23 July 2008 at 2:13 am

Anyone here runner’s? I ask as my experience as a lady runner is that, strangely, even sober men in broad daylight feel they have a right to shout suggestive nonsense at women in the street if the target is travelling faster than walking pace. I’ve even been harrassed by police officers and firemen in uniform.

Laurel Dearing // Posted 23 July 2008 at 8:55 am

thats awful jo. did no one tell you that if you have breasts that if you let them bounce or do anything to draw anyone’s attention to the fact that you are indeed a woman with breasts you are fair game? lol. never mind those times when nobody is drawing attention to them at all of course…

Soirore // Posted 23 July 2008 at 12:10 pm

I live in a town where stag and hen nights (of the rowdy variety) are very frequent and I personally find both rather intimidating. The stag nights however are generally limited to their party whereas some kinds of men seem to see a group of women on a hen night and turn into sexist leering morons. I’ve often seen women groped in the street by men who then say “have a good night love” as if they should expect it. The groups often wear matching outfits (even if it’s just pink Tshirts and jeans) and some men seem to think this labels them as easy sluts on a night of debauchery. Perhaps they just want to get pissed and spend time with their female friends (for some reason that’s difficult to understand). I’ve really not seen a similar level of sex harrasment of men on stags, not even close.

Lindsey // Posted 23 July 2008 at 1:59 pm

@ Laurel Dearing

Your comment made me think, and I can remember boys in my class at age nine asking if they could put their pencils in my sharpener. I think to make any impression lessons on respect would have to start around that age – though no doubt the tabloids would have a field day if they tried it.

Laurel Dearing // Posted 23 July 2008 at 3:27 pm

@ lindsey

true, but i think at that age it would be hard because you want to talk about the issues without making the differences and divide more. i know i hated being stuck with girls in one sex education class. they made me feel sanitary towels. i took a pass on that. i was embarrassed being around girls. its weird. if people brought up the differences it made me mad. i had no idea why back then. i didnt have any male friends. i just was not going to be associated with those damsels in distress, the bitches, and naggers on TV, and certainly not feminists. lol. i managed to get away with feeling like i was equal till i was about 16-17. looking back maybe not xD i dont want to create barriers and make people as angry as i get, too much before they are there. i guess itd have to start with general respect.

then of course people would be complaining that it cut back on important subjects. not sure i *had* subjects in primary school. it was pretty loose.

Soirore // Posted 23 July 2008 at 4:40 pm


I think some schools are tackling issues of boundaries and stuff. A friend reported that her child’s class had massage sessions, over clothes of course, and doing things like the weather in finger taps. The important issue though is that they had to ask the other person if it ok to touch them and to respect their body as their own. This could easily be used in ways to encourage children not to verbally invade someone’s body (if that’s a meaningful sentence).

I was walking past a park yesterday and a tree-full of children, mixed ages and sexes shouted out to me, pleasantly, “Hello Mrs”. I replied a greeting and as I walked further I heard one of the boys shout “Yeah, hello fat person” and the others join him. I was tempted to go back to them and explain that although being fat isn’t wrong it *is* wrong to comment loudly on the appearance of a stranger, good or bad. I didn’t ,obviously, but I had an image of them growing up and their comments getting more personal or dehumanising.

Aimee // Posted 25 July 2008 at 4:52 pm

I know that we are told that we’re weaker than men and that we shouldn’t talk back to them because we may be putting ourselves in danger, but why? And in my opinion, so what? Maybe i’m just easily irritated and impulsive but I’m not going to let people get away with degrading me in public because i’m scared for my own personal safety. I don’t see why we should have to be afraid of men and why we should have to act like they’re so tough and we’re so wimpy. It all seems to me like part of a culture that makes women frightened. I remember when I was at college not too long ago, and a police officer came to talk to us about ‘personal safety’ in which he advised us to wear high heels when we went out so that we could use the spiked heel to disable a potential attacker, always go the lit way even if it might take us a lot longer and always carry a rape alarm. Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but why on earth should we spend every second of our waking lives making provisions for some psycho idiot who might want to attack us. Why should we be worrying all the time about violence? Why SHOULD we walk the long way round lest an attacker be lurking in some dark bush? Why the hell should we wear uncomfortable shoes so that we can use them as a weapon, and why the hell shouldn’t we let some idiot who feels it appropriate to shout abuse or sexually motivated comments at us know that he’s an idiot? Why Do We Have To Be Frightened? I for one am not going to be and i’m going to let someone know that their behaiviour towards me is not acceptable, otherwise we’re all just going to be scurrying around looking afraid and nothing is going to change.

Rich // Posted 27 August 2009 at 12:41 pm

Hi there everyone,

Feel I should chip in on his one as a fella.

Personally, I feel such behaviour as described above is utterly despicable. It’s worth noting however that such harrasment is not exclusively inter-sexual (and therefore not sexist in anything other than an incidental sense). The special brew swilling louts that harangued the author with sexually suggestive comments are probably equally prone to threatening violence to any passing male that makes eye contact. The teenage boys that yelled “slag’ from the passing car would probably yell ‘faggot’ or similar at a bloke 50 yards down the road. The form of the verbal abuse/threats is neither here nor there; the objective (i.e. intimidation of the subject) remains the same. It’s fueled by bravado rather than sexual motives. Essentially the louts think it’s brave/funny to offend peole deliberately and tat it somehow publicly cements their manhood to be seen to get away with it. Some people are just generally unpleasant and that will always be the case.

As for lewd comments/groping engendered by choice of wardrobe, this is not purely a masculine phenomenon, lot’s of girls/women are just as guilty (and no, it isn’t always ‘revenge’). I run a bar and had my genitals groped by a drunken female infront of my wife while collecting glasses and was far from happy. The fact of the matter is that people will make suggestive overtures toward people that they find attractive. If they didn’t, the species would die out. The unfortunate reality is that some people (male and female), particularly when alcohol is involved are less than tactful and articulate about it and end up causing offense. In an ideal world this wouldn’t happen but unfortunately this world is far from ideal. We could exterminate the idiots, but that would be facism.

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